[Music]
[Applause]
Okay, I get
Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me Gatri.
Hollywood like much of America it seems
is riven by race. Enough black Americans
in jail to found a small country. record
numbers of black men and women shot down
dead or dying on the floors of prison
cells and all under a black president.
It was probably the last thing that
Hollywood needed when the great Spike
Lee announced he was boycotting the
Oscars in protest at the perceived lack
of recognition of black and other
minority talent nominated for the
awards. For much of the world, Hollywood
is America, at least the America of our
imagination.
Joining us now is one of Britain's
foremost experts on the movies who's
writing a social history of Hollywood,
Christopher Sylvester. Christopher,
welcome on board the Sputnik. Um, first
of
all, is Hollywood a cartel of pale male
and far too old uh uh mogul? And that's
the reason why there's this perceived
lack of diversity in the industry. Well,
um the moguls do tend to be generally
white. Um and that has always been the
case. Um but the you know there are
female uh production executives in
Hollywood and sometimes running studios.
That that has been the case in in I
think since the 80s. Sher Lancing I
think was the first. Um, so it's not as
um perhaps as monolithic as you might be
suggesting there, but it's certainly
true there are no African-American
moguls at all. And what's the reason for
that money? Yes, essentially um I think
it's more likely that you'll see them
rise up through the world of television
first. Um um but certainly on the um
public facing side of the movie business
um acting and to some extent directing
um they're certainly an important and
major presence these days. You can see
the problem though not just the wider
political problem uh that I alluded to
in the introduction, but something like
40% of all movie goers in America are
black or minority ethnic uh people. And
is it the case that they're watching
white stars in white movies made by
white men? Well, a lot of the films that
they will go to will not be the sort of
films that would ever be considered for
the Oscars anyway. There'll be comedies.
There'll be um thrillers. There'll be
kind of comic book special effects
movies. Um the audience is is is, as you
say, it may be 40% um African-American.
Um but at the same time it's also
heavily dominated by the youth audience
uh which is another factor and of course
the the electorate for the Academy
Awards the Oscars is dominated by uh a
much older audience and the reason for
that simply is that once you qualify to
be a member of the academy you don't uh
disqualify or you're not retired um you
carry on until you're you're dead.
What's is Hollywood a place or is it
just a place in our imagination? I mean
I know it exists as a place but is the
film industry uh all in that place? Most
of the power of the film industry is is
there and that is to say the operational
power the money is wherever money is
Wall Street um most of the studios are
owned by major conglomerates. So the big
money is is elsewhere. But yes, the
operational power is in Hollywood. But
you're right when you when you suggest
that um we we think of Hollywood as a
place. It is a place. I mean most of the
movie business is not located in
Hollywood any longer. It's located in
Beverly Hills or other parts of Los
Angeles. Um um most of the major
studios, those that still have actual
lots aren't in Hollywood and and haven't
been for a very long time. Um, but the
other thing is that Hollywood has
famously been said to be a state of
mind. It's not just um a place. It's
it's the it's the sort of uh the freight
of culture of American popular movies. I
just want to go back to the Oscars for a
moment. Uh cuz I remember when Hal Berry
uh won her um Oscar, she was the first
black person, black woman, and he was
even only half. Uh she was the first
black woman to win um the the major
award of best actress. Yeah. And she had
to go naked for that. And the Did she
what was the movie? The Monsters Ball.
Monsters Ball. And Denzel Washington as
well, for example, a fantastic actor and
also filmmaker. And there's a pool of
course of outstanding black actors and
filmmakers, but there's a small pool.
and Densel, you know, for all his
credits, he did receive three uh global
awards, but for a film in which he
played a corrupt uh black American cop.
Well, to be fair, the first film which
he which he won an award for was Glory,
which was depicting the contribution
that was made by um African-American uh
soldiers on the Union side in in the
American Civil War. So, he wasn't
playing a criminal in that one. Yes, he
played a corrupt cop in in Training Day.
se several years later. And uh it's
certainly true that um black actors u
more actors than actresses will be cast
in films involving crime because as the
stereotype. Well, yes, but as George
mentioned in the in the introduction u
um there are so many black people
incarcerated under the American justice
system and in American prisons that
clearly there are a lot of black
criminals or people who are convicted of
crime. So it's not unrealistic. It's not
a complete distortion uh for them to be
playing criminals. I mean the question
is are sufficient roles being written uh
that you
know portray them in other lights and in
all the other ways in which he played
Malcolm
X and and of course other people Will
Smith played Muhammad Ali. So there are
the great cultural black icons of
America of the 20th century. Uh many of
them have been portrayed in in on film.
Um um so why do you think this row has
erupted then? I mean Spike Lee is not an
insubstantial figure. Uh he's iconic.
He's brilliant. Uh many people admire
his work. What what was it that made him
say I'm not going to the Oscars this
year? Despite Lee, I like some of his
films. Um he's clearly a talented
director, but he's always been an
activist. He has an agenda. Um, I think
my personal opinion and I've looked at
the Oscar uh nominations this year and
I've looked at the uh all the films that
that could have been nominated and and
the categories where um black actors
could have been nominated and the only
one where I see there is a really strong
case for somebody to have been nominated
who wasn't is Idris Ela interestingly an
English um black actor for Beasts of No
Nation. Um, as far as the other cate
categories are concerned, I cannot say
uh in all honesty that the people who've
been chosen are in any way inferior or
simply on the same level as as other
candidates um for in from those films.
For example, Samuel L. Jackson, who's
been nominated before. Um, some people
complained that he should have been
nominated for The Hate Late, which uh,
interestingly,
Tarantino's new film, which is which has
generally not found favor with the with
the Oscars' um, uh, electorate. But, you
know, it's a perfectly good performance,
but there's nothing outstanding about
it. Whereas when he was nominated for
Pulp Fiction um you know some time ago
um that really was an outstanding
performance and you could see it
deserved to be a nominated performance.
It's of course right to recognize uh
talent from wherever it comes you know
but if you look at it rationally and you
look at the actual films uh that are up
I mean there quite a lot of people
complained uh black actors and um
directors may have complained that
Straight Out of Compton didn't get any
kind of major awards. the the oddly
enough the only uh nomination they've
received is for best original screenplay
and the screenplay was written by white
a white person but that you know that's
the luck of the draw. Um again I don't
think that film is necessarily strong
enough to have been in the in the best
film category. It uh you and I both know
well you better than me uh that
Hollywood was once uh proliferating with
uh with activists. Uh you introduced me
to one of your friends, Norma Barsman,
wrote a wonderful book, The Red and the
Blacklist List. There were so many
activists that the moguls uh led by the
right-wing government of the time
launched a witch hunt uh against them.
Uh is Hollywood more politically
quiescent now than it was? Oh, I don't
think so at all.
Um the period when it was quiescent was
the 50s when obviously the black
blacklist still prevailed and there was
a sort of a tail end of that into the
60s.
So it was controversial if you got
involved with radical causes people like
Marlon Brando um did so um in particular
he he supported um black civil rights
causes uh and also Native American
American. Exactly. So um but a lot of
stars didn't want to get involved and
quite you know understandably because
not only the electorate of the Oscars
but the um electorate the wider
electorate in in the 60s was still very
you know in certain parts of the country
very prejudiced and therefore uh it
would have been sort of commercial
suicide just as it would have been
commercial suicide for Rock Hudson to
come out as gay in the 1960s when he was
making those movies with Doris Day. you
know, he wouldn't have done it. Um, and
nor would should we expect him to have
done so. But the uh field now, I mean,
Hollywood actors, I I saw that uh
Penelopey Cruz and her husband almost
exiled from Hollywood over their stand
on Gaza in defense of the Palestinians.
Of course, there's a very high number of
pro-Israel people running uh Hollywood,
whether Jews or not. Uh but you don't
see many Penelopey Cruisers and
No, you don't. I mean, and I think they
would simply say, well, it, you know,
our business essentially is making
movies. Um um we may have private
political views, we may choose to air
them in public, and we may not. I mean,
I don't think you should um berate any
um movie actors, particularly actors or
or directors, for not be being more
active um or or taking more um public
stances on political issues, it's
obviously a matter of choice. So, all
well in the Oscars, I I would say this
is a good year. I mean, I would say that
particularly in the um acting category.
I mean, I think I I just saw The
Revenant the other night with um No,
Leonardo DiCaprio and I cannot see and
Tom Hardy, both of whom I think uh or
not quite shoeins for the the awards,
but certainly I would be surprised if
they don't receive those awards. Yeah.
Well, there that's that's an
endorsement. Everyone get out to see it.
Christopher Sylvester, thanks for
joining us on the Sputnik. Coming up
next, one of Britain's rising black
actresses, a former East Ender star.
Don't miss
it. Welcome back to Sputnik. Now,
Hollywood is one thing, but what's the
situation here in Britain for black
talent in theater, television, and film?
Bumi Mojeku starred in EastEnders,
amongst other things. And a clue to the
answer to my question could lie in the
fact that this month she set up BAM film
productions to amongst other things
employ a diverse workforce in these
fields. But before we speak to her,
Gatri went out onto London streets to
see what the public thinks. Ah, it's a
tough one. In some instances, yes, in
some instances, no. Because obviously
stereotypes exist for a reason because
there's certain people who act in a
certain way. So I think there's maybe an
underrepresentation of the complete
spectrum of black people. Yeah. There's
a lot of white people. Yeah. Basically.
Yeah. Like every main character is
essentially white. So on on the TV in
general, you you you don't really see
it's not really represented unless you
go to a specific channel, then you will
see them. And even the one that you see,
you always see the same ones. I tend to
just look at what's being acted and and
how it's being acted and think, well,
that was pretty good or that was a bit
naff or whatever it may be. Also, when
black people are represented on TV, they
kind of
whitish. Times times haven't changed.
Things haven't moved on. Thanks for
joining us on the Sputnik. Does this big
row going on over the Oscars? Spike Lee
says he's not going. Neither is his
wife. Dustin Hoffman says he's right.
Other people say he's wrong. What's your
take as a prominent black actress and
now in the film production business? Um,
I honestly feel like I think he's right.
So, I think it's time to make a stand.
This has been two years in the running.
So, last year, all right, it probably
just happened and we think, okay, that's
it. Second year, it happens again. And
it seems very deliberate. It seems that
there is a they're telling us that we
are not going to recognize you for a
second year. So now it's time for us to
take a stand and say we're not going to
stand by this again. Like I just feel
like it's very um unfair because as a
community what it says to us is that we
are being ignored. Like you can work as
hard as you want to work but we're not
going to credit you. We're not going to
give you the accolades that we're going
to offer everybody else. And the
question that I ask is why you wouldn't
want somebody to get nominated for an
Oscar that didn't deserve or a film to
be uh given an accolade if it wasn't
worthy of it. I know that you wouldn't
want that. And uh our first guest
Christopher Sylvester was a great
authority on movies and who's certainly
no racist at all. uh his view was that
uh the the only arguable contender that
didn't make it was Idris Elba. Uh that
Samuel Jackson's uh performance was good
but not great uh as opposed to when he
was great and did get uh nominated uh in
Pulp Fiction. Um, is it the case that
black talent didn't didn't just make
enough good movies in the last year? I
disagree with that cuz the figures show
that that's incorrect. And I just feel
like it's just an excuse. People look
for some kind of excuse to justify
what's happened when it's as clear as
day. That it is just a very deliberate
attempt at saying that we are not
acknowledging you simply because of the
color of your skin. And what it should
be about is the talent. The talent
proves that they are excellent and that
they should be in the running to be
nominated to be recognized for their
work. However, that's just not the case.
And if anyone in my opinion says
anything other than that, it's just an
excuse because you don't want to accept
and realize that the society that we're
living in is doing this to us. It's a
false reflection of society. That's the
that's the whole that's what my what
troubles me. You walk around London,
it's, you know, a kaleidoscope of colors
and and backgrounds and and religions,
but it's not being reflected on screen.
Absolutely not. And it's it's bizarre. I
just don't understand it. I I I can't
understand it because when it is
reflected on screen, it's usually the
stereotypes. So like for myself, I'd get
a character who's probably angry, she
can't get a man, or I'm probably really
funny. Or I'm always secondary. I'm
never really quite the lead. I can only
support. And even if I'm supporting, I'm
probably supporting the support. So, and
you were the first black actress in East
Enders as well. Well, no, I was the
first um African character um and
family. So, I mean, in that because of
course there's no real African families
in the East End. I know. So, I mean, I
do commend them for taking that step
because at the time, you know, it was a
very big movement and it was just
amazing to have to be able to do such a
thing. However, it it does speak volumes
to like the rest of the industry that
where, you know, every time that we have
to do something is always related to gun
and knife crime or anything else when
we're so much more than that. And I
believe it's time for us to take back
our own narrative, take back our own
control. I believe that we have skills
and we are able to create a business or
any kind of place where we can put our
own work out and we can also credit
ourselves for it. I feel like as well as
we need to be diverse on screen behind
the scenes as well. I mean if you have
is that what BAM film productions is
going to try to do? Absolutely. You're
going to be the Tamla Mottown of uh of
the film business because that's what
happened. Yeah. All these black acts in
the 1960s would never have got a look in
on the existing record label. So the
greatness of Barry Gordy was Yes. he
created his own label which became so
legendary that everybody else used to
wish they were on Tamla Mortan. Exactly.
Let's hope that happens to you. But the
the the charge you're making is quite
serious. Not it's not your charges. Not
just that the electorate of the uh
academy uh
are subconsciously prejudiced but that
they consciously made a decision to act
in a racist manner. That's quite a
serious charge for me. I do believe so
it is. But I feel like at the same time
that's all they know. These are the
people who are employed there. That's
all their experiences are. That's their
world. So they can only relate to I mean
art reflects the times. So that's their
time that's what they see. So they see
anything else other than that they don't
relate they can't understand that. So
that's why I feel it's very important to
also diversify the workforce. So in if
in those corporations and in those in in
that industry if we see people of
different colors and races and
experiences then they are able to say oh
well that related to me this was an
amazing film. They probably can't have
that understanding. So where you see
people who are in the positions and are
diversified then we can see a change
happen. My mission is to to change the
narrative British of British cinema. I
really was motivated. I mean after a
while I just got very bored and very
uninspired by the state of the industry
where I just felt like why am I always
doing this kind of character? Why would
I ever be considered for this? And then
having conversations with my friends and
family, I sound a bit crazy like, "Oh my
god." They're like, "Oh, calm down."
It's not a calm down situation. It's my
reality that if I go up for something.
Yeah. I I can't get Don't calm down.
Don't When someone tells you to calm
down, tell them no. Oh, absolutely. We
need to be angry and not We need to
Yeah. But we watched a film about the
making of the film Psycho the other
night. Okay. Classic 1950s Alfred
Hitchcock. Uh, I think I'm right in
saying there wasn't a single black face
in the movie because it was a movie
about a movie in the 1950s when the only
black faces were maids. Mhm. They were
uh black women looking after white
people's children.
Uh, now the only black faces are
criminals, gun or knife crime. Or if
they are policemen like Denzel was in
that movie in in Training Day, you're a
corrupt black black uh policeman. Mhm.
That means the writers, the producers,
the directors are all culpable uh in
this because all of us know successful
black people. In fact, you know what
needs to be done? You need to buy, black
people need to buy uh part of Hollywood.
I agree. That's that's the only way
that's going to change. Absolutely
agree. As long as rich white men own all
the movie houses in Hollywood, well,
everything's going to reflect their
perspective. Absolutely. Cuz I how I was
brought up is that my my especially my
mom, she was very forward in that I need
to have my education. Whereas I was cuz
I started my career while I was in
college. So I I didn't feel the need to
go to university, but she was like, "You
need to go." So I was like, "Uh, this is
where my dad comes into it." My my whole
family are very entrepreneurial. So
we've all come from nothing and they've
all made it into something. So I've
always known business. I've always known
I'd be in business. So I thought if I'm
going to go to uni, I'd rather do
something that would benefit me in the
future as opposed to a backup plan. I
don't believe in that. So I thought to
myself, I would like to open something
in within my fields and maybe a drama
school. I have now found it to be a film
production company and I feel that we
are all afforded the same opportunities
within this world and that is education.
If you use it to benefit yourself, you
can benefit your community. So I believe
that like you just said we do need to
own our own then we don't have to ask
anyone for any permission and as a
community my own community what we need
to do is bind together to support it.
Since I have launched this, I have
received such support and such love
which almost threw me a bit cuz I was
like, wo, I was not expecting this. I
was so worried that no one was going to
turn up or to anything I was going to
put on because people can be quite
reserved at times. But it came at the
right time. And what I want to tell
people is to keep this momentum going.
Don't stop. Don't get distracted by any
Kardashian story. Don't get don't get
distracted by anything. This needs to
happen now. and as a community and all
those who are affected and believe in
the change need to get together and push
this forward because we've seen it.
There are many people who are doing many
tremendous things like John Boyga who is
starring in Star Wars. But when we look
at him, we think, "Wow, that's wow, he
did it." Why should we say, "Wow, he's a
talent. He should be able to do that
because at at the end of the day, it's
his talent that has pushed him there."
And that's what I want to push people to
remember that it's talent first. We
think about the talent. You don't care
about where they're from or what they
look like, where what color of their
skin is. That does not matter at the end
of the day, but unfortunately it does.
So we need to do is go back, learn your
business, learn your trade, learn your
if you have a talent, learn the business
behind it. So when you get in front of
these corporations and these industry um
people, you know exactly what you're
talking about. I'm going come up in
there and I'm going to say, "Listen,
this is what I deserve. This is what I
need." And they can't tell me any
different because I know how I know. I
learned. So, I've taken the time to sit
down, learn the business, learn my
industry, and I feel that's the only way
we can move forward. By by boycotting
things I did at the Oscars shows that we
are making a stand that we're not taking
anymore. The next step is to start
owning. To own, you need to educate
yourself. Amen. Thank you very much for
joining us on the Sputnik.
[Music]
And now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media. What's rattling? So Hollywood, is
it a black and white
matter? Ricardo Picasso says, "Well,
2013, 12 years a slave seemed an
important moment in moving forward, but
no black nominees since." And Elizabeth
says Oscars should only be dependent on
who put in best acting performance, not
about the race quota. Yeah, but who
decides that? who I mean who judges
whether there are any uh black actors,
directors that should be up for
basically argues that there are not
enough black talent. How insulting is
that? That's the standard
reply. It may have some validity, but
most people No, it's just that the pool
is not most of the people who think it
has some validity just happen to be
white. Well, I can I can respond to that
with Denton's tweet who sent us a photo
of Chris Rock saying, "Yeah, I love
being famous. It's almost like being
white, you know." And that's all that
we've got time for this week. Which alas
means that's the end of the show. But
you can stay in touch with us through
Twitter at
RT_Sputnik or on Facebook Sputnik on
Russia Today. It's goodbye from me,
Gayatri. And from me, George Galloway,
it's been
marvelous. Heat. Heat.